Self-Publishing vs. Traditional: Janyre Tromp’s Real-World Experience with Both (and Clear Favorite)

For years, writers have asked for my take on a pressing question: traditional publishing or self-publishing?

We end up discussing how personal the decision can be, determined by an author’s personality, drive, and goals. We also look at the book itself and decide which publishing path is the best fit for that particular project.

Because of this personalized approach—and because I support writers no matter which publishing path they choose—I’ve resisted landing on a general conclusion. Instead, I invited Janyre Tromp to tackle the topic on the podcast.

An award-winning nonfiction and fiction author and editor, Janyre has more than 20 years of experience in acquiring and editing books for traditional publishers and indie authors. But she’s branched out even more, and after exploring and experimenting with self-publishing as an author herself, she has extensive insights to share from all sides of the publishing world.

In this discussion, Janyre breaks down each publishing model, defining key terms, weighing pros and cons, and sharing practical strategies for writers exploring their options. You’ll learn:

• Clear definitions of vanity press, hybrid publishing, self-publishing, and traditional publishing
• Why she decided to try self-publishing (indie publishing) after undeniable success as a traditionally published author
• How she leverages her marketing background for maximum sales
• When to choose traditional publishing vs. self-publishing vs. other options
• The financial realities and potential of each publishing path
• Which path has become her favorite (and why)

Whether you’re just starting out or reconsidering your publishing strategy, this conversation will help you move forward with confidence.

Meet Janyre

An award-winning nonfiction and fiction editor, Janyre has more than 20 years of experience in acquiring and editing books for traditional publishers and indie authors. She also has an additional 10 years of experience in book marketing. She has worked with nearly a thousand books written by new and seasoned authors. All of which makes her uniquely suited to equip authors with the tools to help them navigate the quagmire.

She adores working with writers and equipping them to make their books the best they can be. But she is also the bestselling hybrid author of myth-flavored historical suspense, including Darkness Calls the Tiger, Shadows in the Mind’s Eye, Lovely Life, and O Little Town.

Resources:

• Read, watch, or listen to another interview with Janyre at Start with Your Ideal Audience: Insights from Janyre Tromp
• Janyre taught about finding your ideal audience in YPM (join and I’ll point you to the replay: Your Platform Matters (YPM)
• Learn more about Janyre Tromp: janyretromp.com and Editing Insiders
• Janyre’s free Facebook group for editing questions: Editing Insiders on Facebook
• This discussion pairs nicely with “Don’t Wait to Share Your Message“
• Jane Friedman’s P&L info where you can make a copy of her Google doc: The Book P&L: How Publishers Make Decisions About What to Publish
• Jane Friedman’s industry-focused paid newsletter, The Bottom Line (mentioned in the interview)
• Wild Heart Books (Janyre mentioned Misty M. Beller, the publisher; Janyre is on the team as Managing Editor)
• Grafted Page Press, the co-op mentioned in the interview
• Fayette Press for Sci-Fi and Fantasy books, mentioned in the interview

NOTE: Prefer to watch? Check out the YouTube version HERE (or click on the image)

Rough Transcript

Ann Kroeker [00:00:03]:
I’m Ann Kroeker, writing coach. If you’re tuning in for the first time, welcome. If you’re a regular, welcome back. Today you have joined hundreds of established and emerging writers who are discovering ways to reach their writing goals and have fun by being more curious, creative and productive. You’re listening to the Ann Kroeker, Writing Coach podcast. This is episode 286, Self-Publishing vs. Traditional: Janyre Tromp’s Real-World Experience with Both (and Clear Favorite). I’m thrilled to have Janyre with us.

Ann Kroeker [00:00:35]:
She’s an award-winning author and editor with over 20 years of experience in traditional publishing. Plus she has over 10 years experience in book marketing. And here’s what makes this conversation so valuable. She has now experienced both size traditional and. And self publishing. That’s right. She’s a best selling author in the traditional space who is now experimenting with indie publishing or self publishing. She’s going to break down the real differences between vanity press, hybrid press, self publishing, and traditional publishing.

Ann Kroeker [00:01:08]:
So if you’re weighing your options or you’re just curious about the implications of each path, this is the episode for you. Let’s jump right in with Janyre Tromp. If you can summarize this idea of forming a co op that you were telling me about for. Explain that briefly and then I have questions to follow.

Janyre’s Background and Indie Pivot

Janyre Tromp [00:01:28]:
Yeah. So to kind of recap a little bit, you were asking me.

Janyre Tromp [00:01:34]:
Like, what I do. I do all the things, right? So my background, I have editorial marketing and the business side of the publishing world and I do a little bit of all of the above. My day job lands in the editing and kind of the business side, marketing side of things mostly. And then I write and it’s about a third of my time kind of split between the three. But one of the really interesting things, I’m leaning hard right now with my writing into heading indie. And there was a whole bunch of reasons behind that. Um, but I had dipped my toes in the water of the indie space and went, oh, wow, I can move books. Let’s try this thing.

Ann Kroeker [00:02:22]:
And this is from somebody coming from a traditional background. You, you are traditionally published. That’s what you all. You knew before, right?

Janyre Tromp [00:02:29]:
Correct? Correct. So I not only was indie published, but I worked for, or I’m sorry, traditionally published. It was not only traditionally published. I worked for traditional publishers for almost 30 years.

Ann Kroeker [00:02:43]:
Right.

Janyre Tromp [00:02:43]:
And so about two years ago, I went out on my own, started freelancing, started interacting with all of these indie authors and going, huh, this sounds, this sounds kind of interesting. And fun. I’m just gonna, just gonna try it. And I have done a lot of work for one of the many things that I do, the many hats that I wear. I work for Misty Beller at Wild Heart Books. She’s a phenomenal woman. Very, very creative, very author friendly, very indie-minded type person.

Janyre Tromp [00:03:18]:
And kind of under her guidance and tutelage, I was like, let’s try this, this indie thing.

Ann Kroeker [00:03:24]:
On your own or with her?

Janyre Tromp [00:03:26]:
On my own. And then she’s done a couple of things to help me. But it’s like all of a sudden this whole world is open where I’m not constrained anymore to what the traditional publishing world can offer. So I’m kind of pause for just a minute.

Bookstore Access vs Reader Access

Ann Kroeker [00:03:48]:
Yes, I know people, anybody who hears that is going to say, but wait, traditional publishing offers more. There’s constraints. What do you mean? What are you getting from, from, from this indie publishing self publishing path that you weren’t getting? It seems like you would get more from traditional publishing.

Janyre Tromp [00:04:07]:
Well, not necessarily anymore. So the interesting thing that’s been happening in the marketplace and this has been happening over time and if you are in the industry and you’re wanting to be published traditional or indie or hybrid, which is the mix of the two, which is what I am. Jane Friedman is an excellent resource and Ann, I know you keep up with her because I see, I see it come through, little blips come through in your newsletter, which I also keep up with.

Janyre Tromp [00:04:37]:
But the publishers are struggling to find the market.

Janyre Tromp [00:04:44]:
The market hasn’t gone away. It’s just they’re harder to get to, they’re harder to find. And publishers tend to publish a lot of different things and they kind of throw things at the wall to see what sticks. And then if it sticks, then they put marketing money behind it. So it’s this kind of backward processing that has been kind of slowly evolving along with social media and this whole influencer concepting.

Janyre Tromp [00:05:13]:
And there’s a whole thing about that too. But what’s happened is that middle tier authors are not getting the support that they would normally get in the past. And so while publishers, traditional publishers can and sometimes do offer a broader access to bookstores, that doesn’t necessarily translate into a broader access to readers. Okay. So I’m going to say that again because that’s like a really interesting…that was a hard thing for me to get my head around. So traditional publishers often give you better access into bookstores, but that does not necessarily translate into better access to readers.

Janyre Tromp [00:06:00]:
And so what we’re seeing is, the indie world has figured out how to get to readers without the publishers in the bookstores. We still get into bookstores and there’s a whole way to do that, which is fun and lovely and super fun to play with.

Perception and Professionalism in Indie

Janyre Tromp [00:06:18]:
But part of the baggage that comes along with being an indie author is this perception that self published authors are not professional, they’re not polished, that their books aren’t worth reading, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so one of the things that you and I were talking about before, which is why you’re like, hey, yeah, let me press record.

Janyre Tromp [00:06:40]:
One of the things that we’re starting to do as authors. Some of us have, as I do, have a marketing background and we’re very savvy in how we reach our readers. And so we’re starting to band together. So I ran across this group of authors.

Forming an Imprint Co‑op

Janyre Tromp [00:07:02]:
It’s Fayette Press, if anybody is interested. And they’re a group of science fiction fantasy authors who kind of have formed this co-op under an imprint. And because they are under an imprint, they are considered by the trade publication. So Publishers Weekly, Midwest Book Review, whoever else. Most of the trade publications will say that if an imprint carries more than one or two authors, they will be considered a small press. So they will review your books, treat your books as if it were a small press. Okay?

Ann Kroeker [00:07:46]:
Okay.

Janyre Tromp [00:07:47]:
So one of the things that’s very lovely about the way things are set up, at least at the moment, is that I can be under an imprint. So I don’t go, but one of the girls that I’m working with goes to Bowker, buys a batch of ISBNs under one imprint name. And ours is Grafted Press. No grafted pages. This is super new, like as in yesterday.

Janyre Tromp [00:08:24]:
Grafted Pages.

Ann Kroeker [00:08:27]:
Crafted or grafted?

Janyre Tromp [00:08:37]:
Grafted. Like “grafted in,” like a tree branch grafted. Grafted Print…Press. And so she buys the ISBN from Bowker under that imprint name. I have ways to reimburse her with actually with…I trade services for her buying the ISBN. So there’s actually no exchange of money, just to keep it super clean. And then I maintain my own KDP account on Amazon. So I upload my books, my ISBNs, all my things onto Amazon. And so all the money comes directly to me. My cohorts in crime don’t have to deal with paying out other people, yada yada. And it’s the same thing with IngramSpark and Draft to Digital, which those three tend to be the major players for all of this indie publishing world.

KU, Libraries, and Indie Distribution

Janyre Tromp [00:09:33]:
And so there’s. And, and there’s actually. I don’t know if you’ve heard this, Ann. It’s a really exciting. If you’re looking at indie publishing, there is a way. Now Amazon is letting anybody who is enrolled in Kindle Unlimited to also allow libraries access to the ebooks, which I am a huge ebook and audiobook library reader. So my indie published titles can be in KU and also now in Hoopla and Libby, which is like huge and awesome.

Ann Kroeker [00:10:11]:
Yeah.

Janyre Tromp [00:10:13]:
So the whole, the whole evolution of, of the indie publishing is kind of exploding and it’s really fun to watch. There’s actually audiobook publishers out there that love working with indies who have some kind of track record. So you wouldn’t be able to go unless you have, unless you have paid to have somebody do the audio recording for you. There are really good audiobook publishers who will distribute for you.

Janyre Tromp [00:10:42]:
But some of the big players are willing to work with indie authors and pay them royalties just like they would pay for a publisher because they recognize that indie, good indie authors can move books.

Ann Kroeker [00:10:56]:
Which means moving books, means people are buying them. They’re giving money to read your book. And there are several things you touched on. One was you said I have a marketing background. Or maybe everybody in your team at Grafted Press does. Okay, just, just you. But do you think that somebody else who is a writer who’s very intrigued by what you’re saying and they don’t have a marketing background. Should they not even try this? Because you have to have that mindset to be able to succeed.

Indie Authors Helping Indie Authors

Janyre Tromp [00:11:24]:
Now that’s the one thing that’s really lovely about the indie author world. Every single indie author I’ve ever run into is more than happy to help. They have a huge mindset of reaching out to other authors and helping them along. So there’s actually Facebook groups that are specifically dedicated to indie authors. Can I think of them off of the top of my head?

Ann Kroeker [00:11:47]:
No, it’s very searchable. We will be able to find them.

Janyre Tromp [00:11:50]:
Yeah, I think one of them is 20 books to 50k.

Janyre Tromp [00:11:55]:
And that one is a really, really good resource if you happen to be in the Christian market. Christian indie authors is another good Facebook group. Christian indie authors, yes, is another good Facebook group. But Joanna Penn has a lot of really good information. A lot of us are out there who are authors offering services. And we recognize that being an indie author is not easy, it’s not cheap. And we, we are, you know, we, we need to feed our kids and stuff, but we also don’t charge the same types of fees that you’ll see for, you know, the general market, really big, big houses and that type of a thing, the fees that they charge. So we’re starting to.

Services Ecosystem Catching Up

Janyre Tromp [00:12:45]:
It’s kind of what the, the services industry is catching up to the indie publishing world and offering little bits and pieces. So like I have access to people who can do the layouts of the interior layouts. There’s actually a group, they’re called, it’s under Victory Editing. And they buy NetGalley access at a much cheaper rate because they buy them in bulk. And so, and they offer that to indie authors and there’s a way to process through that. So you access to NetGalley, which if you’re not familiar with, is kind of a way to distribute your advanced reader copies or your ARCs to potential readers out there. And the nice thing about NetGalley is that it actually will market to some extent your arcs to people who are interested in your topic.

Building and Vetting Your Team

Ann Kroeker [00:13:37]:
This is, it’s sounding like you have to. So everybody who’s ever even considered self publishing understands that you need to build your team. And I think that’s perhaps for a lot of people. The most daunting thing is how do I find all these people? But what I’m hearing you say is that if you get to plug yourself into the ever increasing number of people ready to support you, you can get the information you need, you can find the people, you can vet them.

I know I have one client who’s very disappointed in one of the team members she hired for something. So she’s very nervous now and scared that she’s going to find another bad experience. So this is something where you could get recommendations people can give you honest input on. Yeah, the top recommendation for this genre is this editor or this designer for this cover.

Ann Kroeker [00:14:20]:
That kind of thing. Is that what I’m hearing?

Janyre Tromp [00:14:22]:
Absolutely. And if you are looking for people who do designs and, and interior and cover designs that you are interested in, one of the best recommendations I have is to go grab a copy of a book that you love the cover of and look in the copyright page because oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes the cover designer or the interior designer will be listed and you can contact those people directly. And say, hey, I saw your cover on whatever. If you loved my cover of Darkness Calls the Tiger, which won awards. It’s amazing. If you open it up, you’ll see who is the person that designed my cover. And you can contact them and, you know, hire them right there then and there to do your own cover.

Ann Kroeker [00:15:09]:
I suspect they’re just about to get a flood of inquiries.

Janyre Tromp [00:15:14]:
The team that did my cover, I will tell you, they are not cheap, I will tell you that. But they’re good. They are very good. They win awards. A lot of awards.

Imprint Logistics, Contracts, and ISBNs

Ann Kroeker [00:15:24]:
Well, you bring up another topic, which is whether you have a. You have a team that you’ve gone with, like you are with your grafted pages press or whatever it is. Did I get the name right?

Janyre Tromp [00:15:34]:
Grafted page. Grafted page.

Ann Kroeker [00:15:38]:
That sounds like it’s lifting some of the burden by getting that wider distribution. But I have, like, weird little nervousness about, like, what does this mean for the U? What for the ISBN, like, what would happen if the person who bought it, God forbid, passes away? Then who owns the ISBN? Like, I have, like, quirky questions like that. Because once you do team up, even in a small way, it does raise questions about who owns what and where. Where is it going? And do you have a lot of contracts you’re signing? Tell me a little bit about all that.

Janyre Tromp [00:16:09]:
Absolutely. I was going to say that, my friend, is where contracts come in.

Contracts and Legal Tools

Janyre Tromp [00:16:14]:
Because it is very important. Whenever you enter into a business agreement with anybody for anything, whether that’s the editing or the COVID or whatever, please make sure you have a contract. Please make sure you check it. I don’t know where everybody stands on ChatGPT, but sometimes I will plug a contract into ChatGPT and say, tell me things that I should be worried about. Tell me the questions I should ask about this. And so it’s not like feeding me, you know, information. It’s not. I, I use it as a tool.

Janyre Tromp [00:16:48]:
But it gives me like, oh, I should watch out for this. You know, this is not in my best, best interest. I should query about this little point right here or I don’t know what ChatGPT is smoking. It is absolutely fine. Like, you know. But yes, there we do have contracts in place to protect us for weird eventualities, specifically with the ISBN.

ISBN Ownership and Title Changes

Janyre Tromp [00:17:22]:
My ISBN, once it is assigned to a title, it cannot be changed off of that title. That is one of the things that is kind of nice about poker Is once you assign a title, you, if you want to change the title, you have to buy a new ISBN.

Janyre Tromp [00:17:42]:
So nobody can take that, that ISBN away from me ever.

Fiction vs Nonfiction: Paths and Strategies

Ann Kroeker [00:17:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we talked a lot about all, you know, increased sales increase, you know, broader reach to readers. But I have the feeling that most of what you’re talking about is for fiction authors of novels, especially genre novels. Like they fall very cleanly into a type of genre where we have avid readers who want to read a whole series and they’ll read the really fat books that take them many, many days, if not weeks to read. Okay, so what about nonfiction?

Going Wide for Nonfiction

Janyre Tromp [00:18:17]:
So publishing wide means that you are publishing on Amazon, but you actually make a little bit lesser royalty and you are publishing your ebooks on both, not on both, but on Amazon IngramSpark and draft to digital. There are other, again, there are so many. There’s Kobo and there’s all, all kinds of things, all kinds of places you can put your book and go feel free to do such things and.

Janyre Tromp [00:19:21]:
But then because the nonfiction just publishes differently, then you go wide with it. And then your marketing strategy is a little bit different too. But you guys have this advantage of having your target market tends to group in places way more than our fiction readers do. So you have these lovely, very focused topics of discussion that you can take advantage of. Your newsletter becomes enormously important. You can do speaking. There’s all kinds, writing for magazines and blogs. And because you have this topic that resonates with you, hopefully resonates with your reader, if it doesn’t resonate with your reader, go listen to the target my audience discussion.

Felt Need and Event Sales Economics

Janyre Tromp [00:20:10]:
But the whole point is to find things that people need, which is leads us directly into a marketing term called felt needed. And if you’re addressing a need for a niche audience, self publishing is the bomb for you, especially out there speaking because you are no longer you. I don’t know if people know this, but if, if you publish traditionally, you have to pay your publisher for the book that you bring with you. And it’s typically not an like super awesome discount. Okay. So you’re paying a good chunk of change to go sell books.

Janyre Tromp [00:20:54]:
And it. You still have to pay for the printing cost of your books when you, when you print from IngramSpark, print on demand from IngramSpark. But it’s a much less cost to print through Ingram Spark. And then you get to keep everything that, that you make then, whether it’s being sold through Amazon or again, all the other places. So you make out, you make more per book.

Print Runs vs POD Logistics

Ann Kroeker [00:21:25]:
Could you. Two questions about that. Number one, could you use your print, the print version Bowker ISBN and go to a local printer and do a print run of your book?

Janyre Tromp [00:21:36]:
Right? Yes. Because the ISBN belongs to you. Yes.

Ann Kroeker [00:21:38]:
Okay. And then another. Oh, go ahead.

Janyre Tromp [00:21:41]:
Yeah, I was gonna say. But the problem with that then is that you are responsible for warehousing and shipping. So you can totally 100 percent do that. I am a…okay, so I’m very, I’m very organized. And most people would not realize this when they know me in the business world, but people who know me as a person, I’m a flake. I’m an absolute airhead with 5 billion things going on in my head at all times.

Janyre Tromp [00:22:06]:
And if I don’t write it down or put it in my to do list on my phone, which will remind me at some point that, hey, Janyre, you need to do this. It doesn’t get done. So it’s like this whole, it’s this whole thing that you have to do and you just have to learn what works for you.

Who Should and Shouldn’t Self-Publish

Janyre Tromp [00:22:34]: There are people I would not suggest self publishing. There really are. And there are people that I would not recommend traditionally publishing. Self publishing is great for people who are willing to learn. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know now, but if you’re willing to learn or willing to hire somebody to help you in an area where you just can’t learn, like if technology is not your thing, either find your kid or grandkid or neighbor or somebody who believes strong.

Janyre Tromp: I was just talking to somebody yesterday that she has somebody who believes so strongly in her ministry that this woman for free does all of her social media. And I’m like, God, can you send me one of those? Right. Wow. So you have to be willing to learn and willing to take these things on or willing to find somebody who can.

Pricing, P&L, and Market Research

Ann Kroeker [00:23:21]:
Yeah. And then price wise, like, it could be pricing people out of what they’re ever going to earn back. How do you address that question or that concern?

Janyre Tromp [00:23:29]:
Yep. And so indie authors, well, authors in general, your business, you have to think of yourself as a business, which is why I recommend contracts. But you have to think of yourself as a business. So I have spreadsheets where I run profit loss guesstimations on things.

There’s a friend of mine and I and we are talking about doing a service business where we just work together to provide services for indie authors. Because we have, between us, I think we have like almost 90 years of experience in the publishing industry. So if we don’t know how to do something, we can hook you up with somebody who can kind of situation. And we are talking through like figuring that out, right? And so one of the first things we did was we went, okay, well how much are people going to be willing to pay for this? Right? So you do market research.

Janyre Tromp [00:24:22]:
So you go out. If you’re a book author and you’re writing on X topic and your book. Well, actually before you go, before you go looking to see how much it costs, you should probably figure out how long the books typically are, right? So you go and you find out almost the books in this topic are 200 pages, right? Amazon, Ingram, everybody publishes the cost of printing those books.

Amazon actually has a place where you can say, my book is 200 pages, I want to charge X amount of dollars. And they’re going to say, I’m sorry, you will owe US A$50 for every book you sell. You might want to raise your price, right? So you figure out, okay, how much do I need to charge in order to make a profit and will people purchase it at that amount? Because if you’re selling a paperback for $27.

Janyre Tromp [00:25:16]:
You’re probably not going to sell any books. That’s a lot of money for a 200 page paperback book. It just is. Now if you put a hardcover on it that might sell, it’ll be more for you to print though too because hardcovers cost more money. So it’s this whole thing where again, if this is making you panic, breathe for a minute, think about it, come back, look at it, say, do I want to take this on yes or no? And if you are like I, I’m still panicking and I still want to figure out how to do it. Learn one little tiny piece at a time. One little tiny piece at a time. So you figure out who your target market is.

Target Market First, Then Incremental Steps

Janyre Tromp [00:26:00]:
That should be your first step in anything you’re doing. Find out who your target market is, find out if what you want to write about is going to resonate with them, and then you move from there and you move each step incrementally down until you have a book that you’re proud of, that’s edited and all the things. And then you figure out the marketing piece, you know, and you can’t neglect that part.

Ann Kroeker [00:26:25]:
I think that there is that tendency like I have the book, I’m done and there is so much more. You’ve only just begun.

Janyre Tromp [00:26:31]:
Exactly. And that’s, that is a mistake. I see quite often is authors jumping too quickly to hit publish without stepping back and, and building a desire for the book or word of mouth about the book.

Who Benefits from Each Path

Ann Kroeker [00:26:48]:
Yeah, and you said that. So I, I feel like you’re leaning on this really encouraging people like, don’t, don’t discount this. This is a legitimate path that you can take and you can get there. And here’s how. Which is what you just gave us. What a gift. Now you did say briefly that there are some people you would recommend traditional publishing for and some that you might not. You want to touch on that a little bit?

Janyre Tromp [00:27:12]:
Absolutely. So there’s, there’s some things that are very clear. There are some topics that the traditionally published world is just not going to do. There are some books that they’re just, they’re not going to publish and it might either be because the, the number of people in the target market is too small for them because they have to pay all this overhead. They have to pay their editors and their cover designers and their marketing team and their sales team. So they have this huge overhead that they have to cover. So they have to sell X number of books to break even. Right.

Janyre Tromp [00:27:48]:
We all understand that they want to feed their kids. I have no problem with this. Right. But if your market is smaller than what their, you know, drop dead number is, they’re not going to publish your book. It still might be a really helpful book and it’s still something that would sell and you can make a profit on it because you don’t have all this overhead. Right. You don’t have all, all these people that you have to pay over here. And so those people 100%.

Effective Nonfiction Marketing Beyond Social Media

Janyre Tromp [00:28:18]:
It’s a great idea for you to self publish if you have a place to market those books. And by the way, when I say market those books, I am not talking about social media. Okay. There are other ways to market books that are much more effective than social media. Social media is like this greeting. Hi, how are you? You don’t go, hi, how are you stranger? Buy my book. They’re not going to buy your book. Right.

Janyre Tromp [00:28:43]:
So it’s just this introduction thing. So there are other better ways to sell your book. And most of my nonfiction friends are awesome with those things, with writing, little blogs, little newsletters, speaking. All of those things are much better, much more effective ways of selling a book than social media, right? So people that have this access to these niche markets, they are a hundred percent amazing self publishing authors, amazing. And because they’re tightly woven into their niche market, they’ll probably find more than one book because when they’re out of that speaking engagement, somebody’s going to say to them, this book is awesome, but could you do one like this? Right? And so then that you have more than one booking, okay? So those people definitely self publish, okay?

Rejection as Redirection

Janyre Tromp [00:29:37]:
And you might not know whether you, whether a traditional publisher will love you or not until you kind of explore it and see. And that’s okay too, okay? Don’t be afraid of rejection in this industry. It’s not, it’s not. It is a.

Janyre Tromp [00:29:55]:
Like a diversion to another path. It is not like the end of the road, okay? So think of it like, you know, stepping into a stream and diverting the stream to somewhere else rather than completely blocking the flow, okay? So people who should definitely traditionally publish.

Goals That Fit Traditional Publishing

Janyre Tromp [00:30:13]:
I hesitate to say that there are anybody that should definitely traditionally publish, okay? Because a lot of the people who are very good at, at traditional publishing would also be good at self publishing. So to some extent, it depends on what you as an author want, what your goals are, what you hope to accomplish. If you want to hit the New York Times bestseller list as a nonfiction author, your most likely avenue is traditional publishing, okay? Maybe that’s your goal, okay, maybe…I don’t know. I mean, that’s whatever your goals are, there are some that are more reachable through traditional publishing than through self publishing.

Patience, Marketing, and Long Timelines

Janyre Tromp [00:31:05]:
If you are completely uncomfortable with marketing in any way, shape or form, you are not going to find your answer in the traditionally published world. You’re not. They still expect you to market your book. And so my advice to you is learn one thing at a time. Go back to that little baby steps, okay? Do the thing that you’re most comfortable with and tackle that and learn that and then see what the next little step is and push a little bit more. Publishing is definitely a long term goal kind of situation. The industry, we joke it is a hurry up and wait kind of industry. The traditionally published world, it can take from the point that a publisher accepts your manuscript to the point that it’s published is, can be two years, it’s insanely long.

Janyre Tromp [00:31:57]:
And that’s kind of an average like that’s pretty normal, you know, two to three years. Very normal length of time between contract and publishing.

Speed-to-Market Advantages of Indie

Ann Kroeker [00:32:07]:
So speed. Speed to I need to get my book out. It’s.

Janyre Tromp [00:32:10]:
Yes.

Ann Kroeker [00:32:11]:
Then that would be another reason to consider going this other path.

Janyre Tromp [00:32:14]:
Absolutely, absolutely. So if you suddenly had an idea.

Janyre Tromp [00:32:20]:
And, and how I chose the first book. So I’m the full disclosure. I’m publishing four books in the next two years and I have some of them that are finished. So I wanted to start with those because that, you know, obviously makes sense. It makes it way easier for me. I can publish them more quickly. But how I chose the first one. I’m a historical suspense novelist.

Janyre Tromp [00:32:42]:
So the 2026 is the 50 year anniversary of the events in one of my books. So you better believe that that book is releasing in 2026.

Ann Kroeker [00:32:52]:
Smart.

Janyre Tromp [00:32:53]:
Right. So I’m taking advantage of a newsworthy element and publishing my book in that time period. Yes, this is a great. It’s a great reason.

Audience-Specific Craft Considerations

Ann Kroeker [00:33:04]:
And you would not…there’s no way a publisher, traditional publisher can meet that timeline.

Janyre Tromp [00:33:08]:
Never. They would never be able to do it. So, so there’s. There are a lot of reasons. The traditional publishing world topically is pretty narrow. How things are approached is pretty narrow. And if you kind of do some research on your area and again knowing your target audience, it will tell you what you can and cannot do and get away with in the traditionally published world. So if you are writing for grandparents, for example, there are very.

Janyre Tromp [00:33:43]:
This is going to sound so weird. There are rules. There are rules about writing for certain generations and, and, and as an author I know you probably don’t know them off the top of your head, but I’ve been in the industry for a really long time so I happen to know them and it’s all based on market research and so crazy things like…the older the audience, the longer your chapters can be. The younger your audience, the shorter your chapters or there needs to be space between headers, there needs to be language. How you talk to people changes based on the generation that you’re talking to or male and female.

Janyre Tromp [00:34:29]:
And again these are broad stroke like wildly broad stroked, you know, concepts. And so sometimes your niche market doesn’t fit these prescribed ideas of what is going to work. The really interesting thing right now that I just have to say.

Indie Trends Influencing Traditional Publishing

Janyre Tromp [00:34:48]:
We’re starting to see the indie world influencing the traditionally published world. That is how powerful indie publishing is right now. So we are seeing this huge surge. I don’t write in this, not necessarily recommending this, but Romantasy, okay, so Romantasy started as an indie published whole genre. That is something that is super, super hot in the traditionally published world right now. And so you see actually the indie world pushing back on the constraints of the general market and saying, no, we know what our readers want. Again, I don’t recommend her. But Colleen Hoover was writing in the.

Janyre Tromp [00:35:29]:
Well, I, it’s not that I don’t recommend her. I’m not saying go read Colleen Hoover and if you know anything about her, you will know why I’m saying that she’s a little spicy, y’all.

Janyre Tromp [00:35:41]:
But she published for a decade as an indie author before her first book was ever published in the traditional world. And the reason that the traditional world was interested in her was because she was already selling books. She was already selling books.

Indie Sales Thresholds and Platform Considerations

Ann Kroeker [00:35:56]:
So a person who chooses the indie path, and I’m just one, just want to pause for clarity. Indie equals self publishing to you. Okay, so she’s indie publishing, but we, we could also call that self publishing. She did that for you say a decade, but she was selling books and that made her interesting to traditional publishing. So if I self publish or indie publish and I don’t sell very many books, could you throw out a number of what you think that, what would be not very many books?

Janyre Tromp [00:36:25]:
It depends on your genre. So a number that I hear often in the traditionally published space, especially in the Christian market, general market is actually less concerned about platform, weirdly than the Christian market. The Christian market, if you’re writing nonfiction, it’s 10,000 followers.

Ann Kroeker [00:36:44]:
Correct.

Janyre Tromp [00:36:51]:
Correct.

Ann Kroeker [00:36:52]:
But If I sold 10,000 copies of my book, I would probably not be interested in going back.

Janyre Tromp [00:36:57]:
Exactly. And that’s, and that’s, that’s, that’s what’s so crazy about this, this whole world. So the only, the only advantage. Okay, I shouldn’t say that. One of the biggest advantages to traditionally published world is distribution.

Distribution vs Goals: Choosing Your Path

Janyre Tromp [00:37:16]:
So again, it’s getting your books into a bookstore is. And libraries, traditionally libraries and bookstores are hard for indies to break into. They’re harder for indies to. And so again, it depends on what your goals are as to whether you want to traditionally publish or self publish. So because like what you were talking about, like the number of books that you would have to sell in order for a traditional publisher to be interested. If you are thinking, well, maybe I want to traditionally publish, my advice is to try the traditional publishing path first. Okay. And that is because they’re harder to get into. So you have to have a little patience. But the reason is, is because an unproven author has more capability of breaking in than an author who’s proven that they cannot sell. Right?

Ann Kroeker [00:38:15]:
Because again, evidence yet.

Janyre Tromp [00:38:17]:
Right. There’s no evidence for. Or again, but if you walk in with evidence against, it’s going to make it harder for you to sell your book.

Ann Kroeker [00:38:24]:
Because I use the term dismal sales, don’t they?

Janyre Tromp [00:38:27]:
Yes, they do. Dismal sales. It stinks. But it’s. That’s just the nature of the beast. Because again, traditional publishers aren’t going to relieve you of your responsibility in their minds to market your book. Yep.

Clarifying “Hybrid” Author vs Hybrid Publishing

Ann Kroeker [00:38:44]:
Okay, so quick question about you. You refer to yourself as a hybrid author, but that does not mean hybrid publishing. And I think that is a. A little naming issue that we have in this space. Is that a hybrid. By hybrid author, you mean that you’re both traditionally and self published, indie published, but there are hybrid publishers out there. How would you. I’ll let you have the honor of describing a hybrid publisher and you can tell me whether or not you would recommend that path.

Defining Vanity, Hybrid, and Self-Publishing

Janyre Tromp [00:39:13]:
Yep. So there’s actually a couple of different things I’m going to go ahead and define right now. So there are vanity presses and vanity presses, you pay them to publish your book. If you are going that route. I am. I am not going to say you should or shouldn’t do a vanity press. They tend to be kind of expensive, but. But they should give you everything you need in order to publish.

Janyre Tromp [00:39:40]:
My recommendation there is, go find other authors that have been published by them, especially if they’re promising marketing. Make sure that their marketing is actually effective, that they actually are doing things that will help you sell your book. Okay. Because again, the marketing piece of publishing is probably one of the hardest pieces to get your arms around and be effective in because the target markets change for every single book that’s out there. Okay. So.

Janyre Tromp [00:40:11]:
Van, they’re called vanity presses. I kind of hate that name, frankly.

Janyre Tromp [00:40:16]:
But basically somebody that you’re going to pay to do everything for you. Okay. Then you have hybrid presses. And hybrid presses, you pay a portion.

Janyre Tromp [00:40:28]:
Of the costs involved in.

Janyre Tromp [00:40:32]:
In hiring an editor and a cover designer and doing the interior layouts and the marketing. But you also get, and it should be a pretty high percentage of the. The royalties. Okay. So in essence, you’re splitting the cost in the royalties with the publisher. Okay. Again, make sure that you are getting a high Quality hybrid publisher. Because hybrid publishers.

Janyre Tromp [00:41:01]:
If you are, if you are paying a bunch of money in and you’re not getting quality back.

Janyre Tromp [00:41:07]:
You’re you getting 50% of the royalties or 60% of the royalties, is it worth it? Because you weren’t selling any books, right? So just make sure that you are giving away part of your rights is worth it. There’s actually an association and I can send that to you. And I just can’t think of it off the top of my head for hybrid publishers. So you can kind of go in and vet to some degree your potential hybrid publisher, okay.

Janyre Tromp: Or get recommendations from other authors. Other authors are prime real estate for getting recommendations for pretty much anything across the board, from agents and editors on the publishing, the traditionally publishing side, to anything you want to do on the indie side. So you have the hybrid and then you have self publishing, which is different than all of those other ones. Um, because you are, you are.

The General Contractor Analogy

Janyre Tromp [00:41:59]:
It’s like a general contractor. This is a perfect explanation if you know anything about building.

Janyre Tromp [00:42:06]:
A general contractor is the person that kind of hires everybody and keeps track of everything, and you kind of figure everything out. And so a hybrid publisher and a vanity press become kind of like your general contractor, right? And they kind of control everything, they figure everything out, they hire everybody.

Janyre Tromp [00:42:26]:
And then you’re the client. So you kind of can give them a little bit of direction, but ultimately they kind of figure everything out. When you move to self publishing, you are the general contractor, okay? So you get to decide everything. You get to decide what your budget is, you get to decide where you’re going to concentrate, you decide who you’re going to hire and figure everything out, okay? But then you get all of the proceeds. You don’t have to split it with anybody, right? And then traditionally published is like moving into a condominium. You get what you get, you pay for, you know, you. It kinda, I mean, not exactly, but you don’t have a lot of say in everything. Most traditional publishers can change your title and your cover and your content with or without your permission or agreement.

Janyre Tromp [00:43:19]:
So you are giving them the right to all of those things. So if you have strong feelings, that’s another good reason to self publish. If you have strong feelings about what you want your book to look like or sound like, traditional publishing may not be for you, and that’s okay.

Janyre Tromp [00:43:34]:
But again, if it, but if you don’t know what in the world. I don’t know, I don’t know what kind of COVID I want on there, then you know Traditionally, publishing may be a great place for you. Right?

Advances vs Royalties: How Traditional Deals Vary

Janyre Tromp [00:43:44]:
So that’s kind of the range in there. And by the way, traditional publishers, there’s different kinds of tradition. Traditional publishers as well, there’s. And traditional publishers pay you to publish your book. Some of them will pay you up front with an advance, but that’s an advance against royalties, which means you have to pay that money back.

Janyre Tromp [00:44:08]:
Through what you earn in your royalties. And then you have some that are straight royalties publishers, which means that you don’t get an advance, you don’t get paid up front, but you typically get a higher percentage of the royalties as they come in.

Janyre Tromp [00:44:26]:
So you know like a 40 to 60% royalty rate, 30 to 60, maybe even royalty rate from royalty only publishers. And with a, with a, with an advance, with a publisher that pays in advance, you’re looking at like 15 to 20% royalties.

Coaching and Done-With-You Support

Ann Kroeker [00:44:47]:
So many options. How about. Have you heard of self-publishing, I guess support or coaching where they will help you figure it all out, but you will still, you’ll buy your own ISBN from Bowker unless you’re in Canada and you get it for free. And you will do all of the steps and they’ll coach you through that and then they just helped you make the book. How do you feel about that option?

Janyre Tromp [00:45:12]:
So I’m actually in the process of putting something similar to what you’re describing together with a friend of mine, between us we have like almost. I, I would have to do the math math and I, no, I’m actually decent. But probably we’re about 80 years at this point between the two of us in the, in the traditionally published space. And then we’re both hybrid authors who, we both publish traditionally and self-published.

Janyre Tromp [00:45:39]:
But if you’re hiring services from somebody, again, just make sure they’re reputable. Make sure, make sure you’re asking for references. Make sure you look at the products that they have produced and see if it’s what you want from your book. Make sure that they are specialists or have familiarity with your genre.

Janyre Tromp: If you are publishing a book for parents and you go to a group that has only done fantasy, you might not be happy with the product that they produce because they’re used to producing, you know, fan, even covers. Fantasy covers are very different than parenting. Yes, they’re as far apart, I think as you can get in the—well, maybe grandparents and fantasy are further apart. But you know what I’m saying, like there’s, there’s a lot of nuance and expertise that goes into a lot of the different areas. Like, I would never touch a kid’s book, never.

Janyre Tromp [00:46:37]:
Because I don’t know that I, I don’t know that industry. And so if I, I do and I have, when somebody comes to me and says, oh, I had this kid’s picture book, I’m like, I am not your person. Here’s a list of people to contact because they know that industry and I do not. That’s good.

Vetting Partners through Real-World References

Ann Kroeker [00:46:56]:
So, you know your limits. And you’re looking for that. Yeah, you’re looking for the people who can help you best. So best. I really love the idea. I tell all my clients this as well, is go look at the publishers, authors they’ve worked with and not just the ones who’ve given the testimonials and then go start reaching out and asking them if they’d be willing to share a little bit about their experience so they can hopefully get, you know, real, real on the ground report on what it was like to work with that publisher. Chances are they’ll be, you know, kind and generous and not, I don’t know, not try to throw them under the bus if they had a bad experience. But I think that’s the, that’s one of the things that can help you vet your choices.

Balancing Indie Advocacy with Traditional Relationships

Ann Kroeker [00:47:40]:
And all this talk, I keep wondering with you, like if you’re one of your traditional publishers, was to listen to this conversation. Do you ever feel like you’re burning bridges with this new path forward wholeheartedly into indie publishing?

Janyre Tromp [00:47:58]:
No. Because there are people who are better off traditionally publishing. I am in, I recognize that I am in a unique situation where I have already built contacts, I already have people who I can call to help me. And part of that was my traditionally published journey. And I am very careful not to bad mouth.

Janyre Tromp [00:48:23]:
The publishers that I’ve worked with in the past. I still, I actually freelance edit for traditional publishers. And I will tell you that the manuscripts coming through those publishers are a higher quality than I typically see coming through from my self publishing clients. And part of that is just there is a vetting system with traditional publishers. And do I get my self publishing clients up to a different standard? A hundred million percent? I do because I’m a professional and I’m not going to let you go out there and publish something that isn’t amazing. But there is a difference. There is a difference. And there are a lot of publishers that know their client or their target market very well. Very well.

Janyre Tromp [00:49:09]:
And I don’t know that I’m comfortable like doing a comparison, but there are a lot of publishers I work for that move a lot of books and they don’t bring in things—they don’t bring in books and authors—that they don’t believe they can sell. And that’s, that’s great for both the publisher and the author. But then for everybody else that doesn’t have a home and doesn’t have a spot.

Indie as a Viable Home for Many Authors

Janyre Tromp [00:49:34]:
Self publishing is a great avenue. It really is. And again, you have to be comfortable, you have to be comfortable with doing a lot yourself. You have to be comfortable stepping into that space and sometimes it takes a little while to get there and that’s an okay too. So, you know, I fully believe in the traditionally publishing world. I fully believe in supporting our bookstores. I have a lot of local bookstores in my area. I’m immensely blessed.

Local Bookstore Ecosystems

Janyre Tromp [00:50:08]:
I’ve got several really good indie ABA general market stores and one of the best CBA stores just down the road from me. Like within an hour radius, I think, I think there might be like 15 or 20 indie stores and a 15 to 20 mile radius that’s in addition to all the Barnes and Nobles.

Ann Kroeker [00:50:28]:
Wow.

Janyre Tromp [00:50:29]:
Where I live is crazy about books.

Ann Kroeker [00:50:31]:
And CBA, for people who don’t know, stands for Christian Booksellers Association, which used to be an entity, doesn’t technically exist anymore, but we still refer to it.

Janyre Tromp [00:50:39]:
Right, right. Yeah, it’s still, it’s still considered the, the Christian Booksellers Association is still considered the industry term, but that the organization as.

Industry Disruption and Format Evolution

Ann Kroeker [00:50:50]:
And so do you feel like the people have talked about traditional publishing is going to be transformed by. First it was ebooks, now audiobooks, and now the, now the self publishing craze. Oh, it’s never going to be the same. It’s being disrupted over and over again and then it just continues to, you know, continue on. But it does change. And that the staff is, is, there’s a lot of layoffs. There’s, they’re going with a really minimalist approach. It seems like from what I’m hearing, I’m not in that.

Ann Kroeker [00:51:21]:
I’m not technically in the industry, but I’m watching it. Like Jane Friedman, I’m learning from her as well.

Janyre Tromp [00:51:50]:
I think, I think it’s going to shake out. I think everybody’s going to find their space. The panic about new, new technology like goes way back. I mean, you skipped radio. Like radio was going to destroy everything. You know, nobody was going to listen to the news anymore. Nobody was going to read the news. Newspapers have shifted, everything’s gone online.

Janyre Tromp [00:52:11]:
Is it the same format? Nope. But we’ve figured it out and we’ve shifted. We’re still consuming information in and it looks different. I mean audiobooks are like a total game changer for, for busy moms with full time jobs and you know, all the things. And so it gives me the, the place where I can still get a lot of reading done, but I’m not sitting still. I’m making dinner.

Audiobooks and Language Benefits

Ann Kroeker [00:52:41]:
As a commuter, runner. I mean, so many different people.

Janyre Tromp [00:52:44]:
Exactly.

Ann Kroeker [00:52:45]:
Yeah.

Janyre Tromp [00:52:45]:
When I work out, I’m lifting, you know, I’m not looking at the words individually on a page, but I am still reading. And there’s a whole bunch of really interesting research about the benefits to people who, who already know how to read. So emerging readers, this does not apply to them. But for those of us who already know how to read and are very proficient read, listening to books actually helps us with our expansion of language and language usage as well as paying attention to and learning sentence structure more than reading on a printed page. Because we skim read when we read on a printed page. But with audiobooks you’re forced to listen to every single word. Right.

Ann Kroeker [00:53:35]:
That makes so much sense to me. Of course, yes.

Janyre Tromp [00:53:38]:
So it’s a very interesting thing where they both have their benefits. It’s like a teacher sitting in front of class reading a book to the, to the class. There’s a reason that they do that and they’ve done that since I was a little girl.

Books as Artifacts and the P&L Mindset

Ann Kroeker [00:53:52]:
But I hear what you’re saying, like the written word is persisting. These new formats are simply giving us more options to have stories told to us to learn new ideas, to share, share new ideas. But then we can, for now, we’ll always seems like be returning to the printed page as the core, the core thing. And I like to tell people who are building a business especially, but really so many people that they can look at the book that we’re talking, I’m talking now back to indie publishing. The money you’re investing in making this thing. Seth Godin might call it an artifact, physical book, but arguably an ebook. You know, it’s not an artifact anymore, but it’s a thing you’re making that. Once it’s made, once you put all that money in to make it, you’re, that part’s done.

Ann Kroeker [00:54:38]:
You invest in yourself, you invest in this idea, you invest in these readers that you’re going to reach and then you have this thing. And from that point on, it’s all about getting it to the reader, the intended reader, to change their lives and let them be transformed, to entertain, to whatever the purpose is of the book. And so therefore, if you can just, I mean, run your profit and loss statement, the pianic, create your P&L. By the way, Jane Friedman has a nice place you can start. You can download or make a copy of hers in a Google sheet and you can. It’s a nice starting place for those who don’t know what that is. You can learn more about that. I’ll give, I’ll provide the link.

Ann Kroeker [00:55:11]:
But anyway, the point is try to figure out how many book sell sales you can make with whatever your plan is. If you’re a business person, you might think about speaking and that kind of thing, but once it’s made, it’s made. And so then from that point forward is all moving toward getting you that profit instead of the loss.

IP Expansion Beyond the Book

Janyre Tromp [00:55:30]:
And there are so many. We call, I call it intellectual property. Right, right. Intellectual property that’s in existence. There’s so much you can do with that. And it’s not just a book or an ebook or even.

Ann Kroeker [00:55:41]:
It’s a course, it’s a talk, it’s a consulting process, it’s a framework. That’s yours. I’m hearing so much about IP from a legal standpoint as well as looking ahead to what you’re creating to make sure those things are in your contract. You don’t want to lose control of that. Gosh, this has been such an incredible conversation and you’ve helped open my eyes. And I hope everybody who’s tuning in too, I hope you’re opening their eyes to start thinking a little differently about their publishing path and seeing possibility where they may have been just looking at it as too daunting to undertake on their own. Thank you for having this conversation.

Janyre Tromp [00:56:19]:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

How to Connect with Janyre

Ann Kroeker [00:56:21]:
How can people get to know you better and learn what you have to offer?

Janyre Tromp [00:56:24]:
Absolutely. So I have jokingly say if you can spell my name, you can find me, Janyre Tromp.

Janyre Tromp [00:56:31]:
So I am Janyre Trump, all over social media, LinkedIn.

Janyre Tromp [00:56:36]:
Instagram, I’m attempting TikTok, y’all. I’m working on it, but that’s my website, my author website, and then I spell your name it is J A N Y R E and then my last name, T R O M P. So my web address is JanyreTromp.com. You can also find me at EditingInsiders.com and that is my editing world. And then I actually run a free Facebook group for folks to just ask general editing questions. Anything from where do I put this comma to can you give us an idea of how to write a hook? And so I answer those questions. It’s totally free because I have a heart for all of the authors that are out there in this world.

Janyre Tromp [00:57:29]:
It is a crazy industry and it is constantly changing. Ann, you and I have a very similar passion for authors where we just want to help you guys. And so I would love to hang out with you wherever you want to hang out with with me if you want to see pretty pictures. And Instagram is kind of my happy place. So if you want to hang out with me, that’s where I am most often.

Closing and Invitation

Ann Kroeker [00:57:51]:
So Janyre’s energy is so motivating. Aren’t you ready to just finish your book and head out on your publishing journey now? I have a little something that could help with that, especially if you’re in the early stages of developing your books concept. It’s called Craft your Books Big Idea. It’s a free three day challenge you can sign up for for move through at your own pace and develop your book’s big idea. Whether you self publish or traditionally publish, you do need to lock in an idea that pops. Head over to annkroeker.com/3day. That’s AnnKroeker.com…3—the numeral 3—day to get started right away. I’m Ann Kroeker, cheering you on as a writing coach in your ears everywhere.

Ann Kroeker [00:58:29]:
We may meet at my website, on the podcast, in your inbox, or even in person. I’m always, always looking for ideas to share with you that will help you achieve your goals and have fun by being more curious, creative and productive. Thanks for being here.